Leopard Support: When?
 

Hi all,

I've been visiting the forum for the past week and have yet to see a definite date for a Leopard release.

Would like to know as I'm leaving for overseas and will need to backup before doing so. I may have to use another product / technique in the meantime but I would like a definite release date etc. or a beta for paid up users.

Cheers.

I do not have a definite date: we don't work "to dates". We work until everything works as it should...

It's not like Leopard came unexpected, huh? It's been announced for months with developer versions circulating for a while. Why is it other folks have their 10.5 version polished on time?

You might "not work to dates" but I certainly do "backup to dates," which is the whole purpose of doing timely backups. Slightly annoyed about this, to be honest.

No, Leopard did not come "unexpected". But, even with that known date, we didn't get the final bits until last Friday. Do you think it would be a good idea for us to release a version of SuperDuper! that wasn't throughly tested with that release version of Leopard, which is significantly different than the last developer seed?

That's just not something we're willing to do. I'm sorry if you're annoyed, but you'd be a lot more annoyed if we released something that wasn't as reliable and tested as what you're using now.

My copy of Leopard is sitting unopened, on the shelf. I'm gladly waiting for SD. In the meantime, there are plenty of other apps I have that won't work, either (expensive ones, to boot, like Acrobat Professional and, I believe MS Orifice X) that I still have to figure out what I'm going to do.

Why is it that anytime there is an OS update (Windows and Mac) people expect all the 3rd party applications to work on day one?

Are we this disconnected from reality?

Did the idea ever cross your mind that maybe you should have waited a couple of weeks before migrating if you wanted all your 3rd party apps to work. It did in my mind which is why I am still using Tiger (with backups) and monitoring Leopard progress on all my important apps.

As has already been mentioned later in this thread and all over the internet, the last Leopard preview released to developers was not the same as the one in the package you bought. Developers got that version the same time you did.

Cut Shirt Pocket some slack and learn some patience. Just because Apple and all the other coprporations want you to run out and stand in line to buy their products on day one doesn't mean you have to do it.

Early adoption does not equal pain free. :)

Fine.

So what features can I use right now that are still working OK?

What are the catches or limitations?

As I've said elsewhere, things mostly work, but the metadata isn't copied up to our standards and copies will likely not boot.

Several things...

1) First and foremost, what t3Rockhall and NightOne said. Some slack is in order. This update (10.5) has NOTHING that I can perceive as a real "must-have" for productivity use. I can't say 100% as I don't know how all 100% of people use their machines, but I'll say again I see nothing that in the real world (as opposed to the poseur, latest-and-greatest crowd) is really necessary. Some neat features, yes, possibly some time saving, but necessary? Puhleeze! So what's the rush with all of you guys. Just a bunch of instant-gratification embodiments of the Me-gen. (Yeah, I'm pissed.) (In fact I'm pissed enough to add that this thread is plain stupid; if Revolting had really been reading the last week, he already knew the answer to his question: "no, there's no definite date yet," and he knew why. But he didn't really have a question.... he had a whine.)

2) There were changes right up to the end of the betas of Leopard, as Dave has said about fifteen times. These changes didn't affect all classes of software in exactly the same way. Thus some programs probably were completed six months ago and continued to function just fine, and their publishers knew they were fine. As Dave has also said (also over and over, poor guy) with backup software, it needs to be 100% absolutely right before release, and they need to be 100% certain of that.

3) Last, and for this our host may kill me, in fact the present version of SD works apparently (note "apparently") just fine, except that the backup won't boot and the copied metadata is apparently not up to Shirt-Pocket's standards. I have been using it (SD) against my "play" copy of Leopard for about four months, and have tested the resulting backups several ways, and they are apparently (same note) fine. So, use it if you want to and it will probably be OK. Me, I wouldn't do it on my "real" system, but I wouldn't run Leopard right now either. Peace

The problem that SuperDuper! is not available immediately is as much or more an Apple issue than a ShirtPocket issue. The same problem exists with the iPod accessory market. It's the result of Apple and Steve Jobs' cloak and dagger method of product announcements. Nobody including the developers and suppliers know what the new product is until the rest of the world does.

This means that the announcement is starting the clock on everything including 3rd party applications, accessories, drivers, etc. Sure you can buy it today, but it's not really a mature product at that point. Even the developer previews aren't the same as the final product meaning that after the actual product ships the developers have to retest.

This is the ugly downside of the secrecy in product development. It's doing a bit of a disservice to the support community.


Sheldon

Fair enough, but still have ?'s
 

OK, if I promise to play nice and not whine, can I still ask a question that is important to me? :)

Like many out there, I had anticipated the release of Leopard. I was not going to stand in line like some wannabe glory hog, but I did want to upgrade based on features and benefits that I perceived to be relevant to my work.

OK, so I wait a few days and don't see any major screw-ups to upgrading i.e. panic upgrade releases from Apple, etc. and decided to take the plunge.

Mind you, part of my reasoning for wanting to upgrade was more due to my need to use XP Pro SP2 on VMware Fusion, than anything else. I was aware that the newest Leopard beta update of theirs appeared to be even more stable than the last Tiger GA release, so it was important to me in my work.

Sadly, the last thing I thought about was whether or not SD would be completely Leopard compatible. I work twelve-hour days as it is and I do not spend that time Googling dozens of 3rd party SW sites to find out what works and what doesn't. I am already on the bleeding edge by emulating XP on an MBP 17 C2D, so I it really always comes down to being able to get my work done first, then worry about the frosting.

To make a long story short, I took your amazing work for granted, David.

So, here’s my question, and I am not holding you responsible for any silliness that occurs from “lost data”, etc. SD is by far the best backup system I use, but it is not the ONLY method I employ.

“What are the odds of a successful Leopard clean install and data migration from an SD backup, IF said backup was done AFTER upgrading to Leopard?”

From an SD backup of... what?

Sorry,

From a complete SD backup of my MBP 17 C2D 160GB hard drive, which unfortunately I have already "upgraded" to the 1.0 release version of Leopard. Said backup was done to a WD 250GB My Book, using Firewire 400.

Does that help?

You may want to check out AppFresh

AppFresh - software update for the rest of your apps

As my luck would have it, their server/site is down for maintenance! :)

It's possible. I can't promise anything: not a case I've tested with 2.1.4.

Oh, and David, one last point regarding the SD backup of my MBP 17 C2D 1.0 Leopard 160GB backup to the WD 250 My Book FireWire 400.....

The backup took a very long time, which I am quite sure you are aware of, as your comments regarding the rather massive data bit changes in Leopard would imply. The backup to the My Book did seem to complete, though, and only hung on the reboot from the My Book. All of this is quite a testament to your developer SW skills, BTW.

Please do not take any of my comments as a challenge to you or your company. I just would rather not wait for a month or so to attempt a clean install with data migration. I have already seen enough funkiness from the upgrade path I choose. So, anything I try at this point is all on me. I just would appreciate your thoughts on whether you thought it might work, from a current SW developer (you) to former HW developer (me) point of view. Please feel free to PM me, if you would rather answer in private. I fully understand (and do not appreciate) the world of instant gratification and what it has done to this industry. It’s one of the reasons that I no longer live in the developer world.

I already did, though. "It's possible."

I updated the link. Try again.

I am not trying make anyone upset, but I read CCC 3 works on Leopard? I have a harddisk which is about to die on me (http://www.techworld.com/storage/new...2&pagtype=all), so a daily backup is really important to me.

I'm not poo-pooing the seriousness of this hardware flaw, but that quote did make me smile.

Just thought I would provide an update to my experiment over the weekend.

I ended up doing a clean install to Leopard on my MBP 17 C2D, and then a migration from the <i>already</i> upgraded SD backup on my trusty WD My Book FireWire 400.

To my amazement, it worked very well, with only a few annoying permission challenges and one or two reinstalled apps required.

I also am checking out AppFresh as I type this...

Thanks to all!

Leopard
 

Well I've tried the various install attempts on my 2 generation old iMac. Archive/Install, Clean/Install, Upgrade. They all had "issues" of locking up. The panic thing.

Finally, I made a clean install to an external FW drive and copied everything over manually. That seemed stable. In fact it seemed to work fine. The machine seemed snappier.

But since SD doesn't work with it I booted from the local drive and will stay with 10.4.10 for now. I'm glad to know that the copy will work though. Just not the boot. That's really not so bad. I can wait. Just wanted to know what was going on.

Actually, this isn't Apple's "problem" as such, and has nothing to do with Apple's (and many other companies') penchant for holding their cards close before announcements. This is a basic reality of commercial software development. Before release of a product that supports Leopard, third-party software houses must test, verify, and fix any issues against the final "golden master" build of the new OS. Nothing less is satisfactory.

For the OS release to be time-on-target with third-party products, Apple would have had to not release Leopard to the general public at the same time as developers. The developers would need to have gotten it before the public, with some time-delay to allow final QA.

This model has a bunch of problems; I'll mention two. First, it (incorrectly) assumes that a new release of Mac OS isn't useful without some arbitrary mass of third-party product available with the respective seals-of-approval on the day of release. Second, it (incorrectly) assumes that there isn't a lot of software that will "just work", and even more that will work except for a few easily patched quirks.

Apple has done the right thing here, the only real problem is with some people's impatience. One could argue that increased frequency of developer seeds could help this, but few shops have the resources to continually adapt their code for unreleased versions of an OS. Worse, this approach can make more enemies than friends, since features that are in flux can cause a lot of churn for impacted developers.

For my part, when a new major Mac OS upgrade is out, I make a checklist of all of my apps (use your favorite Mac outliner) where I mark whether the app is supported on the new release. Once in a while, I go and update my list, and when enough critical apps are good-to-go, I'll consider upgrading.

GEQXON

Just out of curiosity, with a hard drive (your principal one, I take it) which you KNEW to be dying, why on earth did you choose then to migrate? I can easily understand your need for daily backups; I can't so easily understand the need to migrate RIGHT NOW.

It is working fine (for the last 18 months), but 3 of my friends already have a Macbook with a dead hard drive, so I'm not going to take any risk.

I've already ordered a new SATA drive for my Macbook to replace it before it crashes, and in the meantime, I'm going with CCC. Which I, by the way, not like at all. SuperDuper rocks.